Thursday, 16 Cheshvan 5773
In what appears to be a growing trend, eateries in Yerushalayim are challenging state law and the Jerusalem Rabbanut Kashrus Department. Store owners have been meeting and gaining support as a group, deciding the kashrus provided by the Jerusalem Rabbinate is not what it should be, prompting them to save the money and operate as “kosher” without the supervision.
While the religious public at large will not eat in a restaurant without a hashgacha, many Jews who view themselves as shomer shabbos will, and the Rabbanut is fearful that if the trend continues it will result in people eating in restaurants that lack proper kashrus supervision since many well-intending restaurant owners are ignorant of many halachos pertaining to kashrus. State law mandates that any stores advertising as “kosher” must have a kosher certificate from the local rabbinate of that region. One may have another teudah alongside the local rabbinate, which is often seen in the form of one badatz agency or another. The legitimate badatz kosher supervisions will not give a hashgacha to a store that does not have a local rabbinate hashgacha, aware that doing so is a violation of the law.
Jerusalem Rabbinate posek HaGaon HaRav Eliyahu Schlesinger told Galei Tzahal (Army Radio) on Thursday morning 16 Cheshvan 5773 that operating as “kosher” without kosher certification from a local rabbinate is illegal and store owners will face fines. When the rav tried to challenge the facts presented regarding the cost of kashrus for restaurants he came under fire by the radio host, who requested that “Rather than simply discarding the statements as incorrect, please address the issues at hand”. The rav accused the radio host of speaking without having sufficient knowledge on the subject at hand. Rav Schlesinger explained the cost to the rabbinate is symbolic, a mere 600 NIS annually, but this of course does not include the cost of the mashgiach. One store owner explains he was requested to pay 1,000 NIS monthly for the mashgiach, which he explains he cannot afford. The rav simply wished to point out the annual fee for having the kosher certification is minimal and the cost is for the mashgiach, who cannot be expected to work for free.
Store owners that have banded together insist the mashgiach and his supervisor are all too often ‘no shows’ and they feel they are throwing good money out the window. Rabbi Schlesinger explained “just as a lawyer and doctor cannot advertise themselves as professional without a license, regarding kashrus, the same is true. One who sets the guidelines and the level of kashrus is the local rabbinate in each municipality and in order to accomplish this, a teudah and mashgiach are required. If you have a complaint regarding a mashgiach who is a no show, then he should not be paid. No one should or is expected to pay a mashgiach when he does not report for work. This in an unacceptable situation.”
Yonatan, a store owner, feels the mifakeach (supervisor of the mashgiach) must be responsible for the level of kashrus, adding “I do not feel that if a store has a teudat kashrus from the rabbinate it is necessarily kosher based on what I see in reality”. Yonatan insists that he and his colleagues have seen firsthand that the local rabbinate teudah does not attest to a level of kashrus since mashgichim are not doing their jobs.
Rabbi Schlesinger concluded by stating “if you advertise as being kosher without a teudah from the local rabbinate, in this case Yerushalayim, you are breaking the law”. Clearly stores operating without mashgichim are problematic, but equally clear is the fact that a small number of store owners have decided to challenge the Jerusalem Rabbinate and state law. Unfortunately, the radio interviewer did not permit Rabbi Schlesinger adequate time to delve into the complexities of providing kashrus, and even if the Jerusalem Rabbinate has shortcomings, the public must be made aware of the need to have a competent kosher certification and a mashgiach in place to ensure a suitable kosher environment exists.
30 Comments
I find the innuendo and assumptions in your article to be quite offensive. “Many Jews who view themselves as shomer shabbos” – who are you to judge and evaluate who is observant and who is not. Perhaps the restaurant owner, wearing a large kippa who hides things from the mashgiach is better? Since you have started your site you have found too many places and reported on places with a teuda who did not adhere to proper levels of kashrut.
The teuda is not really a reliable standard anymore and for the Rabbanut to insist that only “Gush Katif” vegetables be used in order to have a teuda is ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to clean leafy vegetables – we’ve been doing it for centuries. The quality of the Gush Katif vegetables is lss than many others, the prices are outrageous and the way they do business and treat their farmers is unethical – and yes, I know from first hand experience.
If kashrut is all about appearances and slurs against people who look at things differently – then you are doing irreperable damage to the Jewish people.
First of all, let’s see the rabbinate go after those eating places that only have kashrut supervision from one of the badatzim (the legit ones). Instead, they choose the easy fight.
Secondly: “While the religious public at large will not eat in a restaurant without a hashgacha,”: Depends on the place. It wasn’t so long ago that many many people ate at Maarvad Hakasamim even though they didn’t have a teudah. They had a very good reputation and that was enough
Radio interviews are often problematic. Often the interviewer has an agenda and, in this case, probably doesn’t have enough knowledge to ask the right questions.
However, the Rabbis interviewed indeed did not address the issue at hand — mashgichim that do not show up. “They should not be paid” is not the responsibility of the storeowner, but of the rabbinate. But the storeowner is the one in the field seeing the results.
You write that “the public must be made aware of the need to have a competent kosher certification and a mashgiach in place to ensure a suitable kosher environment exists”. Some storeowners are claiming that even when they have hashgacha, this “suitable environment” doesn’t exist, which, by the way, you yourself have said, many times.
So what’s the solution? Forcing people to pay for a service they aren’t getting just because NOT paying constitutes breaking the law sounds like a pretty corrupt situation.
I must respectfully take issue with your statement, “While the religious public at large will not eat in a restaurant without a hashgacha, many Jews who view themselves as shomer shabbos will…” I prefer to say those who are makpid about their kashrut will not eat in a restaurant without a hashgacha while a clear majority in the Orthodox community will eat in A) any restaurant that has any visible hashgahah, B) that presents itself as kosher or C) any restaurant where they know and trust the owner. Let me give you two examples:
1) My wife and I once flew from Miami to New York 35 years ago. Seated next to us was a religious woman (who came from Boro Park, no less!). This woman had a non-observant sister who lived in our Upper West Side neighborhood. Whenever our traveling companion came to visit her sister, they would go to Famous Dairy restaurant which at the time had no kosher supervision. So I asked our companion how could she eat in a restaurant with no hashgahah? Her response? “What could be non-kosher about a piece of fish and a potato?” (By the way, this woman wistfully mentioned that her daughters could now buy sheitels that looked real as opposed to the old frumpy, second rate style that she owned. She was, after all, a really frum person).
Similarly, Ratners of the lower East Side in the 60s and 70s had no hashgahah but did have a “kosher” reputation (it did, however, serve blintzes and pierogen). Yet every moza’ei Shabbat, the place was packed with black hats and sheitels.
2) Sam’s Deli used to exist down the street from Mesivtah Tiferes Yerushalayim on the lower East Side. MTJ, of course, was Rav Moshe Feinstein’s, zt”l, yeshivah. I called once and asked who is the rav hamakhshir? “We don’t have any hashgahah. But I’ll tell you that Rabbi Dovid Feinstein and Rabbi Reuven Feinstein eat her.” Evidently, they did not see a conflict between the owner’s yirat sh’mayim and his business tactics.
My point is that Jews eat where they feel there is ne’emanut or a believable case that establishment is kosher. The use of the terms religious or shomer shabbat are irrelevant to the discussion.
B’virkat Torah,
Rabbi Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL
Comments on the comments:
To concerned:
I see nothing wrong with the language used. The post didn’t say they are not SS, he merely implied that they are not as careful (rightly or wrongly) as others when eating out. These are facts. If you don’t know such people, you live in an ivory tower.
To Dov ben Moshe:
Au contraire. The goal of the law is to ensure kashrut. Places with a legit hashgacha but not teuda from the rabbanut are breaking the law but at least the food is kosher. The ones they’re going after are breaking the law AND we have no outside observer telling us that food is kosher. Are you sure your problem is not just political?
To Rabbi Casper:
You write:
“those who are makpid about their kashrut will not eat in a restaurant without a hashgacha while a clear majority in the Orthodox community will eat…”
So you’re saying that the large majority are not makpid about kashrut? Even if that was a slip of the keyboard,
As to the woman who sat next to you, who must be an authority since she lives in Borough Park, I don’t see that we pasken halacha based on individual people without examining sources. Talk to us about eid echad neeman bisurim, and then we’ll listen.
As to Sam’s Deli: There’s a difference for local people and non-locals. While it could be fine for locals to rely, it’s hard for non-locals to understand what’s really going on. That’s the idea of the hashgacha – to apply standards so even people who do not know the eatery firsthand can eat there. It’s the same re financial statements – large companies require audits because even though everything may be on the up and up, the outside individual has no way of knowing that.
The terms he used (religious or shomer shabbat) are definitely relevent to the discussion, and while I do not know the situation in Miami, here in Israel there are a world of people (called Masorti) who fit in to the category described by Yechiel. In fact, there are people who do not consider themselves SS but do keep kosher to a large degree, and this situation impacts negatively on them more than on dattim or haredim.
Whoops!
“Even if that was a slip of the keyboard” in my previous post was itself a slip of the keyboard.
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it, as Kohelet writes.
So ignore that.
… the Rabbanut is fearful that if the trend continues it will result in people eating in restaurants that lack proper kashrus supervision since many well-intending restaurant owners are ignorant of many halachos pertaining to kashrus.
What. “the Rabbanut” is truly fearful of is that if the trend continues it will snowball and prosper. This, in turn, will lead to more and more food establishments “seeing the light” and going down the path of self-supervision, which could result in reduced overheads.
The real winners would be those millions of chiloni Israelis who – whether we and the Rabbanut like it or not – are fed up with living in a burgeoning theocracy not unlike that in Iran and who simply do not care about kashrut.
So long as a non-supervised establishment does not attempt to pass itself off as holding a teudat hechsher or to attempt to mislead potential customers let it take its chances. Market forces will decide the fate of such businesses.
The Rabbanut needs to approach this matter with the finest of silk gloves and not to move forcibly. If it chooses the latter course it will alienate chilonim for generations to come.
Rabbi Casper, let’s not forget about Steinberg’s. The latkes were to die for!
Don’t see your point, Dart. No one forces a restaurant to be kosher. It’s the owner who decides that, based on those same market forces. Even if we separate kashrut from state, the price of hashgacha will still be there (and likely higher).
If you think chilonim care about this specific issue, you’re way off. They have other issues.
And by the way, Dart, next time you choose to invest in a company, make sure they don’t waste their money by having an auditor. Rely on their self-supervision, their unaudited financial statements.
(FYI capital losses can be offset against other income up to $3,000 per year in the US. In Israel, not at all.)
The key issue here is the Rabbinate which has a big ego issue and thinks they are the Sanhedrin. The Rabbinate SHOULD have a list of bedatzim that legitimately keep kosher laws, like Eida, Belz, Rubin, etc. and accept those as kosher also. Any store calling itself kosher must have either Rabbinate or one of the other agencies on this theoretical list. Then stores could pay ONE mashgiach to come, instead of having one that comes, and one that they pay to not show up, for sake of the law and the Rabbinate’s ego and big pockets.
For the Rabbinate to say that they are the end all and be all of kashrus, or anything else to do with Yiddishkeit for that matter, is insane. Repeat – they are not the Sanhedrin, much as they think they are. The Rav is not the Nasi Yisrael either.
This is the mandate of the Rabbinate by the Constitution, and they are refusing to do it. It’s them or the highway.
I won’t eat at a store with no hashgacha. But good for them for making a stink!
Rachel, those knowledgeable of kashrus in Jerusalem would know that the agencies rely on each others mashgichim. You will not find one store that has two mashgichim that came out of the rabbinate and the badatz both forcing the owner to hire a mashgiach of their own.
The problem here is the Rabanut’s worthless “hechsher”. As you’ve pointed out on this site before, somebody who actually cares about kashrut can’t rely on Rabanut anyway. There’s no reason why store owners should have to pay for a worthless hechsher.
The hechsher of the Rabbanut is not worthless. The Rabbanut has criteria for its hechsher which guarantee a basic level of kashrus. If anyone wants more than that they are welcome to only eat in establishments that have different standards. The standards of the different Rabbanut hechsherim throughout Israel; are not the same. The standards in Eilat are not the same as Jerusalem. That is not a value judgment but a statement of fact. The purpose of this website, as I understand it, is to empower consumers with knowledge to make their own informed decisions. Leaving the legal issues aside, and indeed leaving aside the very serious question of how reliable some of the “non-hechsher” restaurant owners are, not because they are by nature cheats or wicked people but because they simply do not have enough knowledge of the laws of kashrus, the real issue is how is anyone to know what the standards are of any of these “non-hechsher” restaurants? Without a clear set of criteria, the idea of an informed consumer goes out of the window.
The unhelpful insinuations and back biting of many of the posters here are really very unhelpful. Focus on the merits of the issues, not slagging others off.
David
Personally I have no problem (and see many advantages) to privatizing kashrut to the greatest extent possible. Were the rabbinate to cease supervision, that would be fine IMO. BTW I am not chareidi or secular but a card-carrying (so to speak) srugi.
Having said that I also remember back in the late eighties when the rabbinate tried to crack down on establishments that had a Badatz heksher but not rabbinate certificate. There was no issue of “ensuring kashrut”. The issue was pure and simple business – the rabbinate didn’t like the loss of business. However it had to back down given the political strength of certain groups, a strength that these independent establishments lack.
And BTW there are plenty of professions which are completely forbidden if one doesn’t have the proper paperwork. A person can be licensed physician, Harvard Med school graduate but that doesn’t mean a thing without an Israeli license to practice. So on that point, some place having a Badatz Eida Hareidit certificate is meaningless.
I am disturbed by the answer to the owner complaint that mashgichim get paid but don’t show up. the rabbi answered “don’t pay him.” The only correct answer is that this is rarely a problem. If it happens tell us ASAP and we will read him the riot act or fire him. His answer makes me suspect that many rabbanut machsirim are corrupt and are more interested in featherbedding than in kashrut. Ditto for scandals I hear about all the times with the Vaad of Queens where a store is told to change suppliers from very respected to sources to much more expensive sources. I respect honorable machshirim and I despise corrupt extortion machshirim. Alas there are very many corrupt ones. Not only do they needlessly drive up the price of kosher food; they discredit the very idea of a hechsher. Frankly, from what I know it is not a matter of more machmir hechsherim being more stringent and more kosher. Some of the most machmir are the biggest fressers of corruption and the laziest when it comes to actually doing the work.
Anyone really committed to kosher food and the legitimate role of machshirim had better start challenging the corruption in the kosher food business.
Seems from this interview that he is more interested in the store paying for local teuda over anything else.
If the store is paying for another hechsher (e.g. Rubin) why should he need to pay extra. You can state it is “law” over and over again, it just leads to the conclusion that the main goal here is money
http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=290002
Above is a link to a relevant article.
I especially like the part where the resaurant owner ststes “everything in the shuk is kosher”
It is interesting to note that in the midst of this discussion, Rav Amar (the Sephardi Chief Rabbi) just published a psak that says to AVOID Gush Katif vegetables and that we should all go back to the tried and true ways of washing and checking vegetables.
Hershel
What are the Rabbanut Yerushalayim’s standards, and do they actually enforce them?
The answer to the first question it pathetic, and the answer to the second question is no. A Rabbanut Yerushalayim hechsher is indeed worthless, and anyone eating in such a place in relying on the owner or a specific mashgiach.
BTW, I have been advised in the past by mashgichim at mehadrin eateries not to touch anything cooked on the premises. Even the ones that actually show up and do their job cannot go beyond the Rabbanut’s stated guidelines, which are inadequate to assure that the food is kosher.
FROM A READER
I am a vatik on the JKN mailing list so I already saw this. Very distressing indeed.
My attitude is as follows:
1) Where somebody’s pocket is concerned he is nagua. He can have the biggest shtreimel in the world and make Yom Kippur every Monday and Thursday but he needs a reliable and uncompromised third party to attest to his kashrut.
2) In order for somebody to intentionally break a law like the one demanding at least the lowest common denominator i.e. local Rabbinate certification in order to post the word “Kosher” in relation to his business he is at some point or another going to resort to half truths and/or misleading statements. Truth, unlike the 21st century vogue view, is indivisible. You lie once, you lie ten times and your honesty is compromised.
3) The saddest thing is that reliable and uncompromised third parties seem not to be in too plentiful supply and the system has broken down. For this I don’t have a solution except education, universal certification of mashgichim, mandatory continuing professional development and banning the receipt of salaries and benefits of any kind directly or indirectly from catering establishments. What have I just described? The requirements of an auditor (CPA). Why is food less important than balance sheets?
Shabbat Shalom
Shmuel and Shimon: Good job, you were just motzi laaz on many people. One of the good things about this website is that it specifically avoids the blanket lashon hara/motzi shem ra you just engaged in. Yechiel, why approve these posts?
Dov: I agree with much of what you wrote, but don’t see the point. All I was saying is that it makes sense to first go after those who advertise as kosher with no teuda (which is a kashrut issue) and only then go after those who have a different teuda without Rabanut (a civil issue). As to your being a “card-carrying srugi” – I thought so, that was my point. By saying they should go after the ones who have badatz hashgachot only before they go after the ones who have nothing but advertise as kosher seems to reveal an agenda to attack the badatzim.
I agree with you about the professions, and made similar points in my various posts here.
Concerned: So Rabbi Amar is OK now even though he is the Rav Hasrashi b/c he agrees with you? Your blanket accusations against “Gush Katif” vegetables are ridiculous and shameful – there are many companies who advertise as “Gush Katif”, and they have various levels of reliability. It’s absurd to talk about them as one unit. As to “the way we’ve been doing things for centuries”: there’s a major difference between someone’s private kitchen and a restaurant, and if you don’t understand that then you know nothing about the restaurant business. (BTW I note that even though people dialogued for centuries w/o the Internet, you nevertheless use it. I guess because of its advantages? Apply the same logic to vegetables.)
Yechiel, I like what your Vatik Reader wrote. But I think we’d like to hear your take on the points raised in the comments.
David Rosenbaum has so assiduously tried to be sharp that he would appear to have cut himself – and badly at that.
In his criticism of my earlier comment he has completely missed every single point I had tried to make, namely
1. The Jerusalem Rabbanut’s principal concern over the growth of the phenomenon we are discussing is a serious potential loss of revenue.
2. That the chiloni majority of the Jewish population feels more and more that Israel is rapidly degenerating into a theocracy along the lines of Iran or Saudi Arabia. There is already a feeling that a self-appointed mutaween, or religious police force, operates in the Machaneh Yehuda market forcing traders to close at certain times dictated by those self-appointed “guardians of the faith”.
3. Truly observant Jews will never buy or eat in shops or eateries that do not display a proper teudat kashrut and this is exactly how things should be. However, the non-religious majority must never be forced into doing something that goes against its collective conscience.
If Ploni wishes to eat treif by eating in a non-supervised restaurant let him do so. It is a private matter between his/her conscience and his/her Maker – and no one else has any right whatsoever to interfere.
As things stand, there is far, far too much meddling by Israel’s Jewish leaders in matters of individual choice.
“If Ploni wishes to eat treif by eating in a non-supervised restaurant let him do so. It is a private matter between his/her conscience and his/her Maker – and no one else has any right whatsoever to interfere.”
Various governments in the world have taken it as a given that certain words have to mean certain things. Let’s remove this discussion from the realm of kashrut which simply gets peoples’ backs up. Can anyone selling apples call the apples organic? No, they can’t.
http://www.orgfoodfed.com/FAQs.htm
“It is a mandatory requirement that all products labelled organic must be certified by an approved certification body.”
There is a difference here in that there are multiple bodies that can certify products as organic whereas in Israel there is only one body that can certify something as kosher. Be that as it may, you still can’t call the apples organic “stam”.
Should the government be involved in what can be labeled as organic? Maybe yes, maybe no; depends on how much of a libertarian one is. But the fact of the matter is that the US government is involved.
David I have nothing against badatzim per se, i eat their stuff without thinking twice. I have something against unequal enforcement of the law. In this case there is an added problem of the badatzim representing political parties and groups with agendas way beyond kashrut, but that is a different issue. IMO privatizing the issue would do better than more government involvement.
Dov: In theory, your comments are correct, but there is one serious flaw (in both your arguments, and in the law itself):
The law is a case of asking the cat to look after the milk! It has an inbuilt conflict of interest and what is more, those of us with long enough memories can even recall that this was done deliberately!
The law appoints one particular kashrus body (the Chief Rabbinate) to have responsibility for enforcing kashrus in general. This is a clear conflict of interest, and was deliberately put into the law by the old National Religious Party in their heyday in order to reduce the influence of the Badatz etc. In those days there were no fraudulent ‘kashrus bodies’ as there are now for them to fight against. Contrast with New York State, where the supervisory body does not itself give kashrus licenses. The absurdity of it all is that they have send inspectors to the haredi town of Beitar and handed out fines to stores for breaking the kashrus laws. Nobody in Beitar is particularly interested in setting up a ‘Moetsa Datit’, except for those who would benefit from the asssociated corruption and jobs to be handed out by such a body.
The only remedy is to set up a totally independent body whose only concern is kashrus inspection, and which is able to check on the rabbanut kashrus as well.
Of course, the words ‘totally independent’ are pretty much an oxmoron in Israel …
if a mashgiach is payed by the restaurant or caterer then he is nogea bedavar he wants his job
so if he sees something not right he might overlook it and a friend of mine reported to his supervisor about some problem he was told mind your own business .
“The law appoints one particular kashrus body (the Chief Rabbinate) to have responsibility for enforcing kashrus in general. This is a clear conflict of interest, ”
Is there a conflict of interest that only the Ministry of Health can certify doctors or hospitals? The Ministry of Health is closely tied into various kupot and government hospitals. Add in a long list of government bodies which have the exclusive right to certify something.
Dart:
I will try to be clearer and relate to the issues you raised by your numbering.
1. That is your opinion. I’d like to know what facts you base it on.
2. That may be true (though I think it’s greatly exaggerated by the media. No doubt it exists.) but it is irrelevant to the discussion here. This whole brouhaha doesn’t impact chilonim at all. No one is being forced to have a teuda. The sole issue is can one advertise as kosher without a teuda. Only those who are shomer kashrut care about this issue (and will take both sides). A non-shomer kashrut person doesn’t have a dog in this race.
3. And where did I state otherwise? Again, no one is forcing kashrut on the restaurant. It’s solely an issue of false advertising. You have set up a straw man. Kfia datit is not the issue here.
Dov:
Many government bodies have the exclusive right to certify things, here and all over the world. However the kashrus realm is completely different. Here there are numerous certifying authorities, but one of these is allowed to inspect all the others (and itself …). The rabbanut are in direct competition with the other kashrus bodies! Furthermore, they will never, ever, investigate corruption and fraud within the rabbanut system itself (unless the newspapers get there first, as was the case in Beit Hannassi last Yom Haatzmaut). But then, do you really expect them to harm themselves?
It is totally absurd to fine a restaurant with a Badatz or Rubin certificate (or, indeed from the ‘unofficial’ rabbinate of Beitar or Kiriat Sefer) in the same way as a totally fraudulent outfit is treated.
I repeat what I wrote earlier. I remember clearly how the NRP Knesset members gloated about how their new law (dressed up as ‘consumer protection’) would deal a fatal blow to the growing phenomena of ‘Badatzim’. Consumer protection was just an excuse for this. A State authority for kashrus should have been set up within the Religious Affairs Ministry whose remit would be to investigate all types of kashrus, whoever certified them.
” but one of these is allowed to inspect all the others (and itself …). ”
How does the rabbinate inspect the badatzim? They have nothing to do with them, only the various food establishments.